Chinese Cheaters

[WarOrk]

So, unless you've buried your head under a pile of rocks the last few days, you've probably heard about the controversy surrounding the Chinese women's (underage) olympic team.

In a nutshell, experienced, knowledgeable and respected persons have accused the Chinese of placing underage athletes on their Olympic team via falsified birth/passport records.  Anyone who has watched even just one of the events would probably agree that by appearances alone, the Chinese women's team is stocked with 12-14 year old children, while the rest of the world is "limited" by the rules which state an Olympic althete must at least turn 16 during the olympic year (be at least age 15 with a birthdate for turning 16 by December 31st.)

So why does this matter...

It matters because the olmypics have become more than just "friendly competition".  They have convoluted into "national pride" and as a result, those countries with low standards of ethics and self-strength must resort to cheating and deception to win world acclaim.

The Chinese are (justifiably?) worthy of their 2008 games.  From a sheer standpoint of world exposure, it is great to "force" China opun a world stage and exposure via the Olympics.  There may be issues now, but years down the road, I have no doubts we'll look back and say the 2008 Olympics were the start of China's open world exposure and inclusion...

Yet I have to laugh that they still feel the need to justify their position as a "first-world" country that they resort to obvious cheating/deception via their women's gymnastics team which is stocked with under-age athletes.

I agree with Bela Kayroli (sp?) the world-famous coach who expressed that at the end of the day age matters not, if your country 12-year olds are (brainwashed) able to compete (parents have no choice in China) etc. so long as "our" 12-year olds can compete in return.  Yet instead, Olympic rules require age 16 (or 15 with turning 16 in olympic year) as a minimum standard.  Every country in the world except host China seems to have abided by this rule, but visually, chinese gymnasts are no more than 12 at best.  It matters because at age 12, the human body has not yet developed physical limitations or even more importantly, at age 12, the prospect of major injury to knees, elbows, joints or bones just doens't register on their brains.  At age 12, the body is as limber as an unhinged sponge and the brain is unexposed to the danger/pain of career-ending injuries, allowing these age 12 athletes an unfair mental and physical advantage over their western/non-cheating counterparts.

Speaking from personal experience of 3 torn knee ligaments and possibly a fourth pending/current, i can tell you that my agility/risk-taking is much less that that of me 10 years ago and even that of my peers.  I can't recall even once at age 12 of thinking about what a torn knee meant to my future, but by 16 and my first torn knee ligament, i assure you that my activity slowed, though I still tore 3 more ligaments.

F*&% the Chinese and their immature, childish and unethical treatment of under-age athletes in the pursuit of "Olympic Glory".

I cheer daily as the USA retains the medal lead over China despite their obvious cheating... while at the same time chiding myself for letting the spirit of the olympic games be overshadowed by politics and corrupt government policies. 

So I'm a product of the world.  At least I hold the view that the world respects FAIRNESS and abiding by accpeted rules over a misguided sense of false national pride based on disgusting abuse of athletes for the sake of "national pride".

F--- the Chinese.  Go team USA!  Go team anyone but the Chinese Cheaters!



Long live the Olympics!

[Kwee]

Warork:

I have been told that that 9 year-old girl that sang the wonderful song at the very start of the opening ceremony?  She was lip-synching.  Worse yet, she was lip-synching to another girl's voice because the original singer had buck-teeth and wasn't as cute as the girl they presented on stage.

But I'm not sure what to think about your accusation that Chinese gymnasts may be under 16.  On the one hand, I don't want Barry Bonds or Mark McGuire using steroids because I want all athletes starting from a standard starting place.  And I don't want them hurting themselves to compete.

On the other hand, even without drugs, it seems that some competitions hurt the bodies of athletes by the very nature of what we ask them to do.  (See Sandy Koufax's left arm, for example, if you are around 50 or more.)

Here's the problem: the modern Olympics were supposed to glorify the competition itself, not winning or losing.  (There is a quote backing this up.)  But, as much as millions of us love to watch the athletes compete, winning has become important, not just for national reasons, but for personal ($) reasons, as well.

We don't want Barry Bonds using a better drug than the next athlete.  It bothers us that he's using a drug AT ALL, but we also don't want the contest to be who got the best drug.  Here's the problem.  If China is using underage gymnasts, that's not the same as CHEATING for an individual, right?  I understand what you are saying about awareness of injuries, but the point is, people are gonna see a 12 year-old as being as FAIR as a better-trained 16 year old.

WarOrk, I'm playing the Devil's Advocate here.  What the Chinese are saying is, "Anyone who can do this thing should be allowed to do it."  And yes, they are cheating, given the current rules.  I'm also watching the medal totals and hoping the Chinese do well but finish behind America.  For the rest of you, there is an important geo-political, social, tech and public relations thing going on here.  (There's other cheating going on at the Olympics.)

What is happening is that the Chinese are using EVERY aspect of the Olympics - the rules, the coverage, the heritage, Coke, McDonald's - to advance the Chinese agenda.  That is, the Chinese are trying to win more than the Olympics.  They are trying to win a world.  Keep watching.  I LOVE individual athletes, trying to be who they are.  Just watch.

[Kilum]

I thought the age limit was 16 as well until I saw a 14 year old boy in the British Diving team. I am pretty sure that he would not have been allowed to compete if this was the case.

[Kaid]

The age limit I believe varies by sport. For gymastics it is set at 16. For most sports an age limit isn't needed because the chances of a non adult being competitive is minimal but gymastics it really helps to be super tiny and flexible and flexiblity is something we all lose with age.

Still cheating is an age old olympic tradition and in this case when the govt itself wants these kids to be 16 and is willing to supply them the "proof" there pretty much is no way to prove what age they really are.

As sad as I presonally find it that people would pressure kids that young into that kind of sport which can damage them for life whether they go to the olympics or not really would not change the abuse their bodies are taking.

The way they train from a very very very young age even in the states means that by the time gymnasts hit 20 their bodies are a wreck. The only way for the age limit to be very effective at what its intended to do would be to not start training these kids when they are 6 to begin with and thats simply not going to happen.

[Kwee]

Heck.

I've just been reading today that there are special swimsuits costing over $500 that give swimmers meaningful benefits in terms of speed because of the way they slim their aerodynamics, position their legs, etc.  And there are gymnastic shoes that weigh barely over the weight of a quarter (!) and running shoes specially designed for running counter-clockwise around a track.

I'm a pervert, so I'd love to see every gymnast compete in the nude.  Maybe the athletes would agree to that, but we've got far too many silly groups that would find some reason to gripe.

Worse, it seems that we'll never really get athletes competing in a fair and open way without politics and nations trying to get an upper hand.  As much as I love the Olympics and the athletes who compete, I am convinced that the whole process has become perverted in big nations with something to prove. 

First, WHATEVER the Olympics are, are they amateur athletes or not?  Why are pros allowed in basketball and why are "minor league" pros allowed in baseball?  There's a famous movie where Jim Thorpe was stripped of his Olympic medals because he played one year professionally in a sport that had nothing to do with what he competed in, in the Olympics.  BE CONSISTENT.  An amateur in a sport is one who has never received money for competing in that sport.  It gets worse.  Countries subsidize athletes because they think they WILL do well in the Olympics.  There is nothing to keep country A from spending millions of dollars for training and facilities for a sport when country B cannot afford that.

Second, end drug use.  The IOC is doing good stuff with this.

Third, are there, or are there not, AGE LIMITS?  Enforce them.

Fourth, and this has gotten WAY out of hand: WHO is in WHAT country?  It seems that if you've got a visa or passport, you can compete for whichever country you'd like.  Now, I understand that the girl who didn't make the US soccer team wanted to play and thus was given a spot on the Russian team.  But let's have SOME standard, ok?  If you weren't born there, or if you aren't a citizen of that country, you can't play on the team.  Doesn't that seem obvious?

Done deal.  Except of course, the team with the biggest budget might win.  Or the country with the highest population might win.

It's not fair, is it?

While you're waiting for fairness, what are you going to do about Russia violating Georgia?

I hope athletes keep competing.  The United States, China, Egypt, Athens, England, Canada, Azerbaizhan, Ethiopia, Italy, etc. did NOT invade anybody.  Russia did.

Russia invaded Georgia and needs to be condemned, stopped, yelled at, censured and in every way possible told that it is WRONG!

I'm sorry.  I love the Olympics, what it stands for and how individual athletes compete.  But with all I've learned about the Russian invasion of Georgia, this sounds like "The Guns of August" to me.  We CANNOT let this crass invasion stand.

[Kaid]

Of course we can let that crass invasion stand because we are to fully involved in our own crass invasion and have no troops to send nor any meaningful way of convincing the russians to behave.

Europe won't do anything because come winter time if they get to uppity russia will just turn their natural gas and oil supply off and that will quickly get whatever concessions they want from the euro nations.

We have pissed away our moral authority, our army is fully engaged we don't have enough troops for the two wars we are currently fighting let alone risk starting a war against russia. Our economy is not terribly strong at the moment and we don't trade much with russia anyway so we have no leverage there either.

The bush era chickens are starting to come home to roost and there is not a whole lot we can do about it.

[Kwee]

Kaid:   Yikes!

Good arguments.

[Kwee]

However.

This isn't an issue of troops on the ground.  (I hope.)

All we have to do is bolster up Europe.  Granted Europe gets a LOT of oil from Russia, but it comes through Georgia and Aserbaizhan.

So, if Europe will agree to be real cold for a Winter, is it possible for Europe to condemn Russia for aggression?  Granted, the US has nothing really to offer in return but wouldn't this be in Europe's best interest?

[Kaid]

Given that last winter russia had a few "gas disruptions" that pretty much made a lot of western europe beg and bitch for the gas to be turned back on I think it would take more than russia going into georgia to make Europe do anything.

Europe has no real bargining chips with russia either. Europe imports the vast majority of its fuel and natural gas from russia. Russia was already playing games with their power last winter and showing what they could do if they chose to. Europe's military other than nukes is not enough to be much of a deterent as they have not proven to have much will power to actually stand up unless america is over there leading the way.

At this time america CAN'T lead the way. Even if we instituted the draft right now to get our forces in overseas in the two wars we are already in it would be probably 2 to 5 years before we could be seen as a danger.

Georgia right now is pretty much a case of the Cat is away and busy so the mice are playing and showing off that there is jack all we can do to stop them besides telling them to stop being naughty.

It also does not help that georgia has been pushing and taunting russia over the sepratist areas for the last few years apparently thinking that we would step in to stop russia from squashing them flat. I am sure there were probably even promises to that effect but in the end they were hollow ones because the cupboard is bare at the moment.

I think the best that georgia can hope for right now is that russia does not chose to simply take charge of the country in the guise of peacekeeping to prevent all the horrible looting and deaths. And if we get up on our high horse they will just compare what they did to what we did with iraq when they invaded Kuwait and frankly most of the world would see the comparison at least on its face as valid.


The real trick would be if this emboldens russia into making a grab for the ukraine. The russians REALLY REALLY would like to get the ukraine back or at least certain parts of it by the crimean. That I think would be the worst case because if they tried it europe and america would almost have no choice BUT to try to go in and help protect them and we are in no position to do so.


 Oh forgot to add my last point if Europe decided to let themselves be cold this winter this still would not hurt russia any because china is buying up all the gas and energy they can get their hands on. Russian will have no shortages at all in buyers for their resources so if Europe decided to make a stand Russia could easily enough tell them to go hang and just do business with the chinese.

[Kwee]

Nice analysis, Kaid.  I can only hope that Bush or somebody has the guts to push Russia out of the G8 or off the UN Security Council if that's what it takes.  But I doubt they will.

Your analysis of the U.S. ability is spot on, and the sad truth is there is no other army to stop or even threaten Russia.

Sadly, we almost certainly lose this round.  Georgia might get some sort of "peace," but they will lose their leader (I'm not gonna try to spell his name) and become basically a puppet.

I had hopes until a year or so ago.  America can't be the policeman and the guarantor of free trade AND the world's importer when our economy goes South.  Our economy will get ugly leading up to the election and I fear that things will get truly scary after November.

I wish I knew where to put my 401K.

[Kaid]

In a coffee can in your back yard.

[Gordion]

In a coffee can in your back yard.

/agree

The only thing that I haven't figured out yet is what to convert it into before I bury it... gold, silver, copper?

[Redwohc]

Let's not compare Iraq to Georgia.  That comparison has so many flaws that it can't stand up to even the smallest amount of critical analysis.  However, where Russia has an outstanding point about our hypocrasy is over the former Yugoslavia.  They had breakaway republics that wanted to leave and we enforced their rights with our military.  It is almost exactly the same as what is happening in Georgia.  Only we're on the other side now.  Check your history as to which administration was running things then.  I'm not playing politics here and I will not defend the current President.  I don't much care for him and I think in this particular situation he is unprepared to make a decision.  But lets stick with the facts and not use this an one more opportunity to take partisan shots at the administration.  Whether you agree with the situation in Iraq or not, it has no similarities to Georgia.  Let's also not conveniently omit the fact that the Georgians attacked the Russian sympathizers despite several documented warnings from the U.S. State department telling them not to do so.  That puts this entire situation in a completely different light.  And Russia will pay a significant price for this whether it's apparent or not to most people right now.  They want desparately to be part of the WTO and that's as good as impossible at this point.  It is also worth mentioning that there are some experts in this area who believe that this might be a deal struck with Russia to look the other way when Israel and maybe the U.S. attack Iran to destroy any nuclear capability they may have.  That is a stretch and it's giving the President far more credit than he has shown capable of displaying.  Russia won't be taking over Georgia.  They have too many allies among the breakaway nations like the Ukraine to make that easy for them.  Many of the ships that went to Georgia were stationed in Ukrainian ports.  They are not being allowed back at the moment.  Russia is most likely showing the world, and it's former vassals, that it can do what it wants when it wants so behave.  For the last 15 years Russia has been treated more or less like a 2nd rate country by the U.S. and Europe.  This is their coming out party saying that they will not go away so quietly.

As for cheating in the Olympics I think it's a pipe dream to assume that people won't cheat.  Are the Chinese really cheating?  Probably.  Based on the appearances of their gymnasts it's hard to believe those girls are 16.  It's hard for me to believe Shawn Johnson is 16, too but I guess she is.  Not a good comparison, I'll grant you.  But the point is still good.  The truth is there has not yet been any documentation that shows those gymnasts to be too young.  The IOC allows for the host country to get a lot of leeway and the Chinese may be using it.  That proof may come.  But there is no actual proof.  When there is I will care.

Wait, that last statement is a lie.  I won't care.  Every four years people get all patriotic over sports that almost no one ever watches until the Olympics are on TV.  If it wasn't for Visa, Speedo and ESPN how many of us would really know who Michael Phelps is?  Two person beach volleyball?  Cycling?  Swimming?  Target shooting?  For the most part these are the kind of sports the Olympics represent.  No one watches them.  If they cheat it's hard to get very charged up about it.  I know, it's cheating.  But if anyone thinks the Olmpics are the stronghold of ethics and sportsmanship take a look at the history of the IOC and their kickbacks and political mechanations.  They are politicians through and through.  And cheating has been rampant and documented in many of the sports represented in the Games for years.  Cycling has about the worst record for cheaters.  Ever.  Cheating in sports has gone on since the beginning.  But we're selective in our criticism because we don't like the cheaters.  We delude ourselves into saying that these "amateurs" compete on a level playing field for Country and "the love of the sport".  It's a nice story but none of that is true.  They compete for commercial sponsorship and/or prestige at home.  I'm paintng with a broad brush but it's more the rule than the exception.

BTW, Kwee, very few pro baseball players from the U.S. play in the Olympics because it's the pennant stretch for their season.  Even in the minor leagues.  It's not like hockey where they take 3 weeks off in the middle of the season.  The NBA and many European leagues aren't playing basketball now so it's easy to send pros.  And who cares if they are pros?  Let the best players play.  Jim Thorpe did have medals stripped for being paid athlete.  Now THAT was stupid.  He was the victim of the holier than thou appraoch the Olympics took in the early years of the modern games.  Some, but very few, athletes played in pro leagues then.  The people in charge decided that only the true amateurs should be allowed to play.  Talk about destroying the spirit of the Olympics.  At their inception all athletes were paid professionals.  They were mostly soldiers competing in games that showed their skills:  wrestling, running, discus, javelin.  They were all professionals.  It's really silly when you see so many Americans complain about the Russians having paid professional hockey players.  They were soldiers who did little but play hockey.  It's far more akin to what the Olympics really were when they were created.  Let the best players play, regardless of who does or doesn't get paid.  Technically, most of them are paid anyway.  They get sponsorships.  That's why Mikie wears a Speedo, eats Wheeties (or so we're told) and does ESPN commercials.

And there is substantial circumstantial evidence to suggest Jim Thorpe had his medals stripped due to being and American Indian and the "professional" argument was a convenient excuse.  Given the time he lived and competed that's not a hard argument to buy.  And yes, I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory and I feel dirty for even suggesting one of those could be true.

The U.S. woman competing on the Russian team (whose name I am too lazy to Google right now) I think it's great.  She's a very good player in the WNBA (another sport no one watches) and she has Russian citizenship becaus eshe plays there in the offseason.  European leagues pay 2-4 times more than the WNBA and it's not uncommon for U.S. players to go there.  The WNBA doesn't pay much at all and these players can make a real living in Europe.  It just so happens that in Russian leagues you can be paid more if you have citizenship.  That's why she has it.  She didn't get it to play for Russia in the Olympics like many news outlets would like everyone to think.  She was one of the last cuts to the U.S. team and was invited to play for Russian.  If she raises the level of the play there then it's good for women's basketball all around.  But calling her a traitor like many people are is just plain stupid.  It's traitorous to play basketball for another country in the Olympics?  That's when we are all taking ourselves and these "sports" too seriously.

And your 401K will be just fine

Redwohc

[Reliant75]

I am not meaning to add my two ( or three) cents but just wanted to say this.
In no way do I support McCain or Barrack at this time, but I do like what he said recently.

McCain:

McCain: when I looked at Putin's eyes I saw 3 letters: K G B ...

I thought this was funny.

[Kwee]

I'm really sorry I drew this thread off-topic.  There's lots to be said about Georgia, Russia, etc., but that wasn't what this topic started out discussing.

The topic is - in a word - cheating.

There is this: If there are programs that let you see what cards are dealt online to others in poker games, then, EVERY poker game is cheapened, whether or not cheaters are there.

There is this: If even just a few baseball players are using steroids, then EVERY record and every achievement is cheapened, because it might be caused by steroids, or the play before it, or after it was

There is this: A 41 year old woman got a silver medal in swimming in this Olympics.  Given the training and dedication that is modern sports, that is an incredible accomplishment!  But, if you believe SOMEONE is cheating, now you maybe think SHE was cheating, even though there is no evidence.

ANY cheating that is not caught is bad for sport.  Worse, if it appears that the "powers that be" are not actively seeking out and suppressing cheating, it damages the entire enterprise.  That's why Judge Landis was so revered for smacking down the Black Sox World Series.  It "appeared" that some players threw the games, and, even though Shoeless Joe Jackson was a widely respected player with no real evidence that he was involved in the scandal, he was banned for life just on the appearance of scandal.  In baseball, there are many of us who think that Pete Rose, as long as he was betting AGAINST his team's opponents, wasn't "so" bad.  But he broke the rules.  And he's banned from the record books.

By taking a harsh line against popular players, administrators of the past have tried to preserve the integrity of their sport.  It can be argued that this is how Jim Thorpe lost his medals.

If you've read this far, then I hope you realize I have a lot of respect for all athletes and I expect the monitors and administrators of the leagues of athletes to make hard and unpopular decisions to PROVE to us, the fans, AND to fellow athletes that no cheating is going on.

I don't believe this happened in Beijing with the women's gymnastics team.  Sure, I've watched the replays and seen how young they looked, but age and looks are cultural.  What upsets me is the evidence of birth certificates and parentage that has been soundly quashed by the government and press of China.  Even if every girl is 16, the way the government and news of China has handled this would never get the free pass it has if it was an American government or news agency doing the suppression.

But again.  Imagine you are some young gymnast looking forward to the world championships of 2010 or the Olympics of 2012.  Now you know somebody can cheat. . . even maybe.  It dirties everything.  It drains the honor and any feeling of glory there might be.

I have political reasons for opposing China, but this "little" thing sucks.  They spent 40 BILLION dollars on the Olympics and its venues.  They won more golds than anyone.  They didn't need the few young girls that the international press questioned.  Why do the clamp-down and lying for so little?