Chinese Cheaters

[Redwohc]

Kwee, I love ya man, but I have to disagree here.  Cheating happens all the time.  The appearance of cheating is always there whether people cheat or not.  Gaylord Perry cheated in baseball.  He admitted it.  He's in the Hall of Fame.  I don't like Pete Rose.  He's a self-involved jerk who thinks he's bigger than the game.  He has more hits than anyone else and it's a joke that he's been banned by an now deceased Commissioner who didn't like him very much.  He didn't break any rules.  He gambled on baseball.  There is nothing saying he can't do that.  I can't really defend the behavior and I think it was in incredibly stupid and unethical thing to do.  But he didn't break the rules.  Bartlet Giamatti made them up as he went along.  If he would have copped to what he did and said "my bad" I'll bet you my next paycheck that he's in the HOF ten years ago.  And he didn't cheat.  Just one look at the guy and you can tell he earned every one of those hits.

The Black Sox scandal is a black mark on the sport, no doubt.  But Judge Landis was about as corrupt as it can get.  He took money from the owners to take a newly created job that was specifically put in place to ban any players involved in the scandal.  They banned 8 players with circumstantial evidence that they cheated.  Sure, many of them probably did.  But Mr. Commisky(sp), the White Sox owner, didn't really want to pay those players either.  When they were banned he didn't have to pay any bonuses he promised.  He was the one who pushed for Landis, too.

Bobby Thompson (The Giants win the pennant!  The Giants win the pennant) admits he knew what pitch was coming because his coaches were stealing signs.  Is stealing signs cheating?  If it is then every baseball players who ever played at a high level is cheating.

I believe we define cheating by who we like and who we don't like.  Cheating is human nature.  Everyone tries for some kind of edge.  It's hard for me to give the IOC any credit for their integrity when they ban caffiene(sp?) but they take money to name a certain city for the next Olympics.  I don't think cheating cheapens a sport.  It cheapens the athlete that does it, but not the sport.  Look at Lance Armstrong.  He's the most tested athlete in the world in a sport full of cheaters and he has yet to be caught doping and he still beats everyone.  Michael Indurain(sp?), his closest competitor for years even admits that when Armstrong is in the Tour it's a race for second place.  They cheat and they still can't beat him.

Cheating is always there.  It has always been and it shall be forever after.  How we define it is based, in my opinion, on whetehr or not we're winning or losing.  One man's cheating is another man's extra effort.  There is nowhere near as much integrity in the world as people think.  And there is even less of it in sports.

And if they ever do come up with that program that shows the other player's cards it still won't help me.  I suck at poker.

Redwohc

[Kaid]

Actually Pete Rose betting on baseball was against the rules because he was in a position to affect the outcome for his bets. That is the worst kind of gambling violation in a sport. Its one thing to gamble on horse racing if you are baseball player bit if you are betting on games your own team is playing in and you are in a position to affect the outcome ya kick him out of the game. There needs to be serious penalties for that kind of behavior. Cheating is bad game rigging is even worse.

[Kwee]

Red, I knew Perry threw the spitter.  He was kind of an oddball, but lends credence to the idea that everybody cheats, if they can.

I had no idea Bobby Thompson knew what pitch was coming!  So, did Willie McCovey in the 7th game of the '62 series?

For the last couple of days, I do NOT define cheating by who I like or don't like.  I was happily playing poker at pokerstars.net (and losing.)  Then a guy came along and pointed me to a cheat site that showed what cards were downloaded.  It ruined the game for me.  Not because I was beaten by anybody using the cheat, but because I then thought ANY adversary COULD be using the cheat.

I agree, human nature being what it is, we'll all try for an advantage if it's really important.

But that just means two things are clear to me.

1) If it's a friendly game between you and me, then we should NOT cheat, unless we know each other SO well that we implicitly agree that cheating is part of the game.

2) If it's a REAL game, then to heck with you.  I want every judge I can find to keep you from cheating.    And, ok, I'll take you at your word that everybody goes for an edge.  I don't care about Lance Armstrong or Gaylord or Bonds or Judge Landis.  Ultimately, if I'm involved in my sport, what I'm trying to do is train and be the best at that thing.  But I'm telling you, if, while I'm swimming or biking or running or throwing and training my heart out, if you're taking a drug or cheating - or even if I think the current rules allow you to take drugs or cheat - then I'm gonna feel cheapened and despondent.  And, even if I beat you, I'll worry that someone figures that *I* cheated.

I disagree that we define cheating by who we like or dislike.  I played Strat-O-Matic baseball in the late '60s and '70s.  I played against Pete Rose, but at the same time recognized what a talent he was.  That had nothing to do with him as a person or where he played - he was just a card in the deck.  I admire Sandy Koufax.  I would think less of him if I thought he somehow "cheated" by using steroids.

Red, your whole argument is - I hope - wrong.  You said, "Cheating happens all the time.  The appearance of cheating is always there whether people cheat or not."  I grew up for 40 years thinking that stealing signs was part of the game.  Then, after awhile, I KNEW Bonds and Mcguire were doing SOMETHING because they looked so different.  Remember when Bonds was a leadoff hitter for Pittsburgh?  But I didn't know about what steroids did til the press investigated it.  Maybe all the ballplayers knew.

But I really wish someone had STOPPED it before the records I grew up with were broken by guys who beat the system with drugs.  Are you that much more cynical than me?  Do you think Musial, Dean, Gehrig, Hornsby, Mays, Gibson, Wills, Yaz and Ruth cheated the way you are suggesting?  I'm not saying they wouldn't have, if they could have.  But I'm thinking they DIDN'T.

Ah.  Having said that, I see what you're saying: If the drugs had been known then, some of those guys (or others) would have taken them.  So your point is taken.  People will cheat if they can.

My point is, I didn't consider cheating and I looked up to all those guys because I thought they were honest and real.  But I can't look up to anyone - really - if I think they're winning because of drugs. . . regardless of whether the drugs are legal or not.  All that means is that maybe someone won because of an ingested chemical, not because of desire, hope, training or grit.

Anyway, my point isn't whether or not we should allow drugs for athletes to be better.  (I believe we shouldn't.)  My point is that there IS a continuum of cheating and there is a line that *I* think we shouldn't cross, and I think many agree, whether drugs are involved or not.  (Red, I think you agree with me, but I'll go on.)

Stealing signs is ok.  Killing the opposing team's first-baseman is not.  Sliding spikes-high into second is ok, dropping a ball on purpose is not.  Glancing back at the catcher's sign is ok, using a corked bat is not.  Training harder and weirder than anyone ever before (as Ron Perranoski did) is ok, taking a drug that enhances performance - even if it isn't specifically banned yet! - is not.  Come on, there is a difference between some new steroid derivative and Sugar Frosted Flakes, and today's players know that difference.

You're probably right: as long as sport is winning and losing, athletes will do ANY new thing to win until it is banned.  I'm naive: as long as sport is being the best you can be, athletes will strive for personal perfection in a way that the rest of us can only admire.

[Redwohc]

Strat-O-Matic is the bomb!  Kwee, I have a new respect for you.  We must get together and play sometime.  i still have my 1986 version somewhere.  Ah, the Buckner year...

All of those players you mentioned, I will bet that in the context of their time and their game, cheated.  Yep, Yaz, Musial, Wills.  The only exception I am willing to make is Ruth.  He was just so much better than anyone he played against at the time.  He outhomered entire leagues.  The guy was some sort of freak.  If he played today I think he would still be an above average player.  But not the superstar he was.  Players are bigger and stronger and take care of themselves better.  They don't train on whiskey and hotdogs anymore.

But getting back to the cheaters.  Did you know the the grounds crew in any given stadium shapes the field to their team's advantage?  That means the Dodgers could (and did) soften the ground in front of home plate so that Wills could get bunts down easier.  They can cut the grass short or let it grow to tailor the field to the type of team they face or the pitcher they use.  They can slope the baselines on 1st and 3rd in or out to suit their hitters.  They can't mess with dimensions but anything else is fair game.  The Twins tried to wet down the baselines and first base area to make it so that Wills had a much harder time stealing in the '65 World Series.  The league intervened saying they had gone too far and made the grounds crew fix it.  No fines or penalties.  Hey, everyone alteres the field, right?  They just went too far.  Think about that.  Major League base KNOWS that grounds crews do this and they rarely check unless complaints are registered by opposing teams.  Teams have employees that ALTER THE FIELD and they know but they don't do anything.  If that's not cheating then I'm lost ast to where the line, quite literally, is drawn.

You see a grat deal of broken bats in today's game.  People talk about the wood used.  Should it be ash or maple?  Do bat companies have the right manufacturing processes?  No.  It's got nothing to do with that.  The reason bats shatter so often is that players regularly alter them and the league KNOWS it.  They get regulation bats made to regulation specs by regulation companies.  When their new bats come in they shave the handles down.  If you go to a game very early during batting practice you might even see them doing it.  Right there in the dugout.  It's an accepted practice.  Now maybe you don't put that on par with steroids and it would be hard to say it was.  But my point is it's still cheating.  You shave the handle on a bat and you take weight off.  You get a better grip.  All of htat makes it easier to swing faster.  Faster swings deliver longer drives.

But people want to keep pointing to steriods because that's "real" cheating.  Let's keep in mind what steroids actually do for a player.  It builds muscle, true.  But more than anything steroids are used to help recovery.  By far their greatest benefit is muscle repair.  That means a player can recover faster from soreness and fatuige.  It will build muscle.  And looking at the size a Barry Bonds head it will have other effects.  But none of that, none, makes you a better hitter.  It allows you to play longer.  Barrry Shouldn't be hitting 50+ dingers at 38+ years old.  He cheated.  Everyone knows it, including a Grand Jury.  Maybe McGuire cheated.  I believe he took something as bad or worse than Barry.  But he also hit 50 home runs as a skinny rookie.  He's always been a power hitter.  And Barry was skinny as a rookie with Pittsburg.  But he was a phenominal hitter then, too.  He's an a**hole, but he could rake.

But keep it in perspective.  From the 50's on clubhouse attendants have regularly given players amphetamines.  Former players will tell you that all the time.  Tony Gwynn, the San Diego Padres HOFer and one of the greatest hitters ever says it was a regular and accepted practice.  They took them because the season is long and the travel is brutal.  They need them to get up for the next game.  They say that if you take amphetamines out of baseball you'll see the scoring drop.  They have taken them out now, so they say.  Scoring is down, too.  It could be a total coincidence.  But Musial, Yaz and many other players we all know an love played druing those times.  Tony Gwynn says he never took them.  But he waited until his career was over to say something.  Does that mean he did them?  Nope.  But it looks fishy, too.

Joe Dimaggio cheated.  Yep, Joltin' Joe and his 56 game hitting streak are subject to scrutiny.  Why?  There are games druing his famous streak that had their offical scoring changed to show hits instead of errors.  Now, that happens in games often.  But does it happen several innings later or even after the game?  There is evidence to suggest that was the case.  Sure, Joe didn't actually cheat.  But the league might have.

And it wasn't just Perry throwing spitters.  The spitter was a common pitch for years in baseball.  Bob Stanley of the Red Sox might have made a career out of throwing one in the 80's.Don Sutton, another HOFer, was a notorious ball cutter.  And forgive me my blasphemy, but how did Nolan Ryan devlop a neck breaking curve at age 35?  If you ask Mike Schmidt, a Phillies HOFer he'll tell you everyone thought Nolan cut the ball.  But he also said you don't ask the ump to see the ball.  It was Nolan Ryan.  Besides that, he'd put the next one in your ear if you did.

Lou Gehrig "cheated" if you ask a lot of baseball purists.  There were several games later in his streak where he played the first half of the first inning to keep the streak alive.  Then he left the game without even hitting.  But he was sick.  Really sick.  So that's ok, right?  Maybe.  But if you ask me it's cheap.  Still and incredible player but we look the other way because the story is good.

My point is that we chose what it cheating and what isn't.  That other stuff was all "part of the game".  But now that records are falling, rather dubiously in many cases, we are outraged because it's allegedly due to chemistry.  I contend it's just the new version of cheating.  But let's not pretend that it makes athletes into dramatically better players.  Take a look at the majority of the players who have been busted with HGH and steriods.  They are mostly journeyman players and middle relievers.  When asked why they cheated they either say they didn't or that they were trying to PROLONG their careers.  They are not a who's who of basell immortality.

But even if no one cheats there is always the accusation.  Look at Albert Puijols.  He's a monster of a hitter.  He's been tested and they've never found a thing.  But he's so good that he gets accused of doping all the time.  Is he?  He certainly could be.  But he says he's not.  Just like Rafael Palmerio.  Or maybe he's totally clean.  But the game is still played and the records still count.  Does it cheapen it?  I think that is up to the individual fan to decide.

And if you beat me in a friendly game of Strat-O-Matic I'm gonna claim you cheated cuz I'm a sore loser

Redwohc

[Kwee]

"everyone thought Nolan cut the ball.  But he also said you don't ask the ump to see the ball.  It was Nolan Ryan.  Besides that, he'd put the next one in your ear if you did."    hehehe!

Good points, Red.