Homophobia in MMORPGs

[Thales]

Can I be serious for a minute?

Why do MMORPG players feel so free expressing their homophobic views in-game?  Although the cynic in me keeps expecting it, I've never heard anyone comment on, say, the gender of their party's tank ("You tank like a girl, ha ha!", "I am a girl!").  No one bats an eyelash at all the men who play buxom female characters.  Although I rarely see anyone rolling dark-skinned toons, I've never heard anyone make fun of "black" toons.  So why the hell does everyone seem so completely okay with making fun of gay players, or gay people in general?

Some of you may have seen me playing Language Cop when I see people making homophobic jokes in either guild chat (yes, Stealth, you sometimes have this problem) or the open channels.  It drives me nuts to think that there might be some 15 year-old lesbian in rural Ohio, who probably already has low self-esteem because of all the crap she has to put up with in real life, playing EQ2 for a bit of escapism and seeing all these anti-gay jokes going unchallenged.  Why do people put up with this?  It's wrong to hate people for who they are.  It's WRONG!  Didn't your parents teach you that?

Case in point: last night I had a little run-in with another player.  Said player, reacting to something they didn't like, said "That's so ghey!" in guild chat.  I took a minute too cool off and then sent a polite private tell saying "Hey, I don't appreciate it when you use 'gay' to mean something you hate."  Said person wrote back a few minutes later saying that, in their household, 'gay' just meant happy.  What a colossal lie!  So they were really saying "That's so happy!"?  If you say "That's so gay" so often that you have to develop alternative spellings of the word 'gay' to keep it interesting, you have a hate problem.  NO ONE else in the guild challenged this person's language at the time, even though there were like two dozen people on.  I didn't feel comfortable challenging the person publicly because, well, it seems there are more homophobes around that gay-friendly folks.  Most of you are Americans and lord knows that Americans, in general, don't like the gays.  It kind of wrecked my fun for the night.  The worst part is that I genuinely like this person (insofar as I know them) and would be really sad if there were animosity between us.

I got so fed-up with homophobia in EQ2 at one point that I considered leaving Stealth and joining a guild that markets itself as gay-friendly and <gasp> is largely populated by gay players (Bane).  My alt was in Bane for a long time.  I eventually brought him to Stealth because I got frustrated being in two guilds at once.  Personally, I think it's terrible that there even have to be "gay-friendly" guilds.  Wouldn't you be appalled if all the black players had to form a guild to get away from the hateful comments of the white players? 

Yeah, so watch this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS0GVOQPs0

and this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=C277qAKpUaQ&feature=related

Thales

[Gildan]

I don't think it has anything to do with homophobia at all for most people.  I think it's somewhat insulting to assume the misuse of a word by someway makes them a homophobe to be honest.  Like it or not, gay as an adjective is currently part of the English lexicon.  It has been for a good 15-25 years.  There is obviously nothing wrong with being gay, but for whatever reason many people in a certain generation use it as a negative descriptor without thinking.  Sadly, it's just considered a normal part of one generations language set.  Much like 30 years ago, all kinds of what we would consider derogatory terms for various ethnicity were ingrained in common language.  Or much like misogynistic language has been ingrained in our culture hundreds of years.  Does that make everyone a racist, or a homophobe, or a sexist - nope, just ignorant of how the things they say can upset other people.

[Redwohc]

I would take exception to the statement that says most Americans don't like gay people.  I'll grant you, we have a very homophobic slice of our population.  I can't argue that a lot of people here are very homophobic.  But a lot of people just don't care.  The only problem I have with your statement is the word "most".  It's painting with a pretty broad brush.

Personally I don't care who people choose to be with.  I don't care if people are born gay (I belive that to be the case) or they "become" gay as many of my more conservative friends would have people believe.  Who cares?  It doesn't affect me one bit.  Honestly I don't think it's a hate problem as much as flat out fear.  

I had a friend come out a few years ago.  It was pretty traumatic for him to finally admit to himself that he was gay.  Truth be told, many of us already had a good idea that he was.  But he fully expected that he would lose some or all of us as friends.  Kind of silly in my opinion but I can understand why he felt that way.  None of us had a problem with it because that would have just been stupid.  He's still the same person.  It's not like anything has changed.  I told this story to another friend of mine and he was all freaked out about it.  "What if he was, like, you know... interested in you?" he said.  I replied by saying "Why shoudln't he be?  I'm a great catch!".  The look on his face was priceless.  But he obviously had a problem with gay people.  Why, I have no idea.

I don't know why people are so afraid of homosexuality.  Maybe it's for religious reasons.  Maybe they just don't understand it.  But in my experience most people don't think it's much of an issue.  I've got a few friends who are very homophobic.  Makes no sense to me.  But 90% of the people I know don't pay any attention to it at all.  But I wouldn't assume that the population of a game like EQ2 is representative of the population as a whole.  There are a lot of kids in there that still think "gay" is the punchline to a lot of jokes.  I don't think they're hateful as much as they are just ignorant.  There may be a 15 year old lesbian girl that hears their insults and has her self-esteem damaged.  But there are other 15 year old playing who have had their self-esteem damaged for other reasons, too.  The world is an imperfect place and people say mean things sometimes.  Sometimes it's because they really don't know any better.  You can't completely protect everyone from harm.  sometimes they have to be able to roll with it themselves.  It would be great if that wasn't the case, but it is what it is.

On the other hand, I do wish that people didn't feel so driven to shout their "status" from the highest rooftop all the time.  I think that often leads to more trouble than good.  I don't care if you're Christian, Muslim, Jew, lesbian, gay, pro-choice, pro-life, macrobiatic, vegetarian, etc.  So please stop telling me every 15 minutes.  I just don't care.  When we start seeing people more for who they than what they like to call themselves I think we'll all get along much better.

But then again, I could be completely full of sh*t.

Redwohc

[Wren]

I didn't see that comment in /gu, so I cannot voice my opinion on whether or not it was homophobic, or slander against homosexuals. I have noticed that (IMO) most of the time someone uses "ghey", they are not trying to be hateful or mean.

For many that use that sort of leet speak (which I personally find really dumb and eye-rolling and annoying, 'ghey' being at the top of the list, but I'm 40 now, so that may be why), 'ghey' is used to denote stupid, unfair, annoying, something that pissed them off, etc. For example: "these new buffs they gave my char with the patch are just ghey." That's not someone that is slamming homosexuals, that is someone that enjoys leet speak and has latched onto a word their peers use.

So, when I see that sort of talk, unless I see direct reference to homosexuals (or 'faggots', as the homophobes might say), I will assume they are just griping about something and need to open a thesaurus or read a good book once in a while.

Then again, I also assumed that my state was open-minded enough to not pass an amendment that would ban gay marriage, and look where we are now. *sigh*

wren

[Thales]

Gildan,

I'm sorry, I've thought about this a very great deal, and I completely disagree with you.  If someone said "Ohmygod, that's so black!", would you put up with it?  You would not.  "Bitch" is a pretty commonly-used word.  Should I feel free to call female guild-mates bitches whenever I'm mildly annoyed with them?  The fact that homophobic language is common doesn't in any way make it okay.  It is not possible to truly accept gay people and still say "That's so gay", any more than it would be possible to be truly non-racist and casually refer to your dog as a nigger.  

There's a very good reason that the Prop 8 protesters in California are shouting "Gay is the new black!".

Redwohc,

I'm sorry, I disagree with you, too.  More than half of Americans are homophobic. Time and again, more than half of you vote to restrict the rights of gay people.  Even in California, 52% of the population voted against gay marriage.  Typically, an even larger percentage express strong disapproval of homosexuality, even if they aren't willing to vote against gay rights.  I don't know if you have traveled much outside the US but, if you had, you would see how different things are elsewhere.  I have lived in your country and traveled all over it.  I know what it is like.  

When Jon Stewart joked that Canada's most conservative political party would, if it were in the US, be called Gay Nader Fans for Peace, he wasn't far off the mark.  Our most conservative party supports full and equal gay marriage.  Our country actually got into a public spitting match with the Netherlands over who legalized gay marriage first.  Our television shows mock the very notion of voting on the rights of minorities (e.g. the campaign to rename our federal politician, Stockwell Day, Doris Day, after he once suggested we adopt Direct Democracy); your country considers voting away the rights of minorities (e.g. Prop a God-given right/duty.  Your country is very, very socially conservative.  It's not slander, it's the truth.  If you're bothered by that fact, don't just deny it, change it!  PLEASE change it.  You may not be homophobic, but more than half of Americans are.  

Your point about most EQ2-players being smart-ass kids is well-taken, but even so, most people would still strongly condemn their use of racist language.  So why let them away with homophobic language?

Also, why are you bothered by gay/vegetarian/Jewish/etc. people self-identifying?  Do you have any idea how many times straight white Christian men self-identify in a given day?  Have you ever thought about how many times a day you signal to someone that you are a straight, white man?  

If invisible minorities didn't self-identify once in a while, people would assume they didn't exist.  Don't you remember how much people laughed at the president of Iran when he claimed they didn't have gay people in Iran?  He can say that and not look like an idiot to Iranians because Iran suppresses freedom of expression.  

Thales

[Thales]

For many that use that sort of leet speak (which I personally find really dumb and eye-rolling and annoying, 'ghey' being at the top of the list, but I'm 40 now, so that may be why), 'ghey' is used to denote stupid, unfair, annoying, something that pissed them off, etc. For example: "these new buffs they gave my char with the patch are just ghey." That's not someone that is slamming homosexuals, that is someone that enjoys leet speak and has latched onto a word their peers use.

Wren, I hope you know that I really like you and I have a lot of respect for you, but I have to disagree.  If I started saying that things I didn't like were "so negro" and I did it so often that a million teenagers copied me, it wouldn't stop being wrong.  If I say "this jar of jam is so Jewish", even though I'm not referring to an actual Jew, it's still wrong!  It's no less wrong if other people say it, too. 

I just don't get how a bunch of straight people can say to a gay person "No, no, you're wrong.  When people like us use the word that describes people like you to mean 'stupid', we don't mean that you're stupid.  We just decided that that word means 'stupid' and you have to live with it because we say so."  It's not the people who use discriminatory language who get to decide whether it hurts, it's the victims.

Thales

[Atherin]

Just to clear up one point here.  Contrary to popular belief, the primary cause of Prop 8's success was a vigorous voter backlash against this very body of judges, who were interpreted as overstepping their bounds as interpretors and coming down as actual legislators, something the branch of government was never intended to be.

Prior to Prop 8 arriving on the ballots, a measure was proposed before California voters that would effectively ban gay marriage in the state. The law passed, to the chagrin of homosexuals in the state who immediately promised to appeal the decision to the California judiciary. After a rigorous legal campaign, the California Supreme Court overturned the law, arguing that it violated the state Constitution. This sent an uproar throughout the state - many who had initially been on the side of gay marriage were suddenly turned against the notion if it was to be forced undemocratically on them.

[Thales]

For many that use that sort of leet speak (which I personally find really dumb and eye-rolling and annoying, 'ghey' being at the top of the list, but I'm 40 now, so that may be why), 'ghey' is used to denote stupid, unfair, annoying, something that pissed them off, etc. For example: "these new buffs they gave my char with the patch are just ghey." That's not someone that is slamming homosexuals, that is someone that enjoys leet speak and has latched onto a word their peers use.

Wren, I hope you know that I really like you and I have a lot of respect for you, but I have to disagree.  If I started saying that things I didn't like were "so negro" and I did it so often that a million teenagers copied me, it wouldn't stop being wrong.  If I say "this jar of jam is so Jewish", even though I'm not referring to an actual Jew, it's still wrong!  It's no less wrong if other people say it, too. 

I just don't get how a bunch of straight people can say to a gay person "No, no, you're wrong.  When people like us use the word that describes people like you to mean 'stupid', we don't mean that you're stupid.  We just decided that that word means 'stupid' and you have to live with it because we say so."  It's not the people who use discriminatory language who get to decide whether it hurts, it's the victims.

Thales

To clarify, saying that it's okay to say "That's so gay" just because it's commonly done is like white people telling black people "We're going to say 'That's so negro' when we mean 'That's stupid'.  You have to like this because we are going to say it a whole lot until it's too hard for you to stop us from doing it.  Yeah, so get used to it."  Any black person with any dignity would maintain their opposition.  Similarly, any gay person with any dignity will never accept "That's so gay!"

Thales

[Thales]

Just to clear up one point here.  Contrary to popular belief, the primary cause of Prop 8's success was a vigorous voter backlash against this very body of judges, who were interpreted as overstepping their bounds as interpretors and coming down as actual legislators, something the branch of government was never intended to be.

This is another peculiarly American idea: the idea that judges making decisions on the basis of sound moral principles are "undemocratic".  In the US, you have "direct democracy": basically anything can be put to a vote.  In the rest of the democratic world, that's called "mob rule".  No matter how morally justified their case, a hated minority will never progress under direct democracy.  In Canada (and in most other major industrialized democracies), we have an unelected judiciary who are charged with figuring out what is right and what is wrong, not what is popular or what will win votes.  That's why we got gay marriage even when most Canadians were pretty confused, unsure, and scared about it.  The judges decided that it was right.  There are certainly problems with both systems, I admit, but I like ours better.  In one of the Swiss cantons, they vote on who should be able to immigrate to Switzerland.  It's very democratic.  As far as the Swiss are concerned, it's a convenient way of keeping those nasty, dirty, low-life Eastern Europeans out.  And it is a grievous injustice. 

Was it "democratic" of Germany to elect the Nazis?  Sure was!  Was it right?  Hell no!  When it comes to dealing with minorities, the mob is usually wrong.

Thales

[Brasse]

I don't know if you have traveled much outside the US but, if you had, you would see how different things are elsewhere.

You mean like in countries where gay sex is punishable by death? There are plenty of those around. Even more countries where people don't even TALK about it, never mind attempt to enact legislation.

I lived in Canada for 36 years, and had no trouble finding all sorts of homophobes there. The country as a whole has simply moved to a governmental style that encourages more overt rights.

Atherin is correct, that some people voted down Prop 8 for all the wrong reasons. Baby and the bathwater, it happens all the time.

I suspect that most Americans are somewhat homophobic yet, when we look at a total population count. However, things change over time. The nation is also consistently described as the last bastion of racism, but look who they just elected.

The fact is, players use stupid epithets in game that really go beyond or even around their actual meaning when applied in a game sense. I have always personally objected to the use of "gay/ghey/fag/nigger/jew/etc." in game and many players take this as a stab against their freedom of speech and other "rights" (which does not exist in a privately-owned game world, as EULAs kindly outline for us).

Any time I've been an Officer in a guild, I've taken a zero tolerance approach to this sort of stupidity, along with excessive swearing (the occasional slip is a given), sexual, religious or political discussions. They always get out of hand. I like a "G" rated guild chat, it's just as fun, funny and interesting. There are Guilds out there that accept a lot of things I don't like, but I just don't join them.
This attitude sometimes makes me unpopular. Ask me if I care. =)

We have so many fine epithets specific to gaming that people don't object to, I wish folks would just lean on those instead. My personal favorite is "asshat," which borders on foul language depending on what school of thought you belong to, but newb/n00b, carebear, ganker, ninja-looter (unless the United Federation of Ninja Rights objects), etc. How about jerk, moron, idiot, loser, and that all-time winner, Elfink. Oh wait, that last one might be considered racial. =P

Mind... call me a n00b and I'll find something to kill you with.

;-)#
Brasse

[Atherin]

I think you absolutely missed my point.  I was not trying to open a discussion on the merits of various governmental systems, I was pointing out that your premise that Prop 8 passed because more than half of the folks in Cali hate gays is in error.  Or at least partially so on the face of it.  It was mostly a referrendum condemning the judicial branch from overstepping it's authority.  However flawed that type of system might be.  

Secondly, I would put to you that you did not start this thread simply as a friendly discussion, but as an all out campaign.  As evidenced by your many and varied replies posted mere seconds after each person voices their opinions.  I would put it forth to you and the owners of this forum that this discussion is already on its way to outright vitriolic levels.

[Gildan]

Where did I say it was ok?  I was trying to say grouping anyone who uses an unfortunately common saying as homophobic is just as insensitive.  Thirty to fourty years ago it was common to refer to people of various ethnicity as spics, kikes, kooks, towelheads, etc.  Were all these people racists?  No it was just a very unfortunate part of the common vernacular at the time.  Just like calling something gay is today.  Or another one that is merciful dieing out "we raped that mob" or "we got raped" were far far far too common in MMO's for years.  Does that mean everyone is promoting sexual assault and condoning rape - of course not.  It was just a common expression that far too many people latch onto.  And to accuse everyone of being racists, sexist, homophobic, etc. for saying it is just a tad extreme in my opinion.

This is not a case of direct democracy.  Prop 8 will in fact be overturned in the courts because it alienates basic human rights.  If it was a direct democracy situation, then this would not be the case.

[Brasse]

Similarly, any gay person with any dignity will never accept "That's so gay!"

Oddly enough, I know several gay gamers, and it is common for them to poke fun at themselves in exactly this way, "OMG, I am SO gay!"  or "Could I be any gayer? Look what I did!"

This is along the lines of "We can call each other niggers, just YOU can't call us niggers!"

A lot depends on context.

Humans are just plain WEIRD.
Need more Dwarves in the world.
;-)#


ps. I am watching this thread. Historically, our readers have been civil and reasonable, and I don't remember the last time I had to lock a thread, and have never deleted one (I leave that to Kwee, who routinely deletes his own 3:42am posts). I do know that a great many of our readers are very well-informed political commentators, so I always find these threads interesting.

pps. I also do not condone American-bashing, even though I am not American myself. It's as bad and unfair as any other kind of labeling. Be specific and list the issues, don't blame the nation or the people as a whole.

[Thales]

I'm really sorry to have to disagree with so many of you.  I should point out that, with all the really horrible things that have been happening to gay Americans recently, I am really on edge about these issues right now.  In my mind, societal homophobia, the American judicial system, and a laissez-faire approach toward intolerance have all combined to produce a very bad situation for gay people in the US right now.  I feel *really* horrible for them.  This is making me less able than usual to brush off casually homophobic comments.  As I said, I really feel bad for some gay kid in California who just had his right to marry the person he loves voted away and now he has to listen to homophobic crap in online chat. 

I know that none of you who have responded are homophobic, but I do wish someone would try to see things my way.  And I really wish someone had said something last night when that comment was made.  Next time, I will.

Thales

[Brasse]

I know that Stealth does NOT tolerate that sort of crap, in theory. This means that the Officers online should have dealt with it. If they didn't, or you want to handle the matter yourself, take screenshots of the offensive chat and send it to Fanadore. He has booted people before for being idiots.

In the end, just like in real life, everyone needs to take some action.

Bad things happen to gay people all over the world. Or to people of a specific enthicity, religion or social group. We are evolving slowly as a human society, and it is a fragile edifice, when we are all, like it or not, hard-wired to be suspicious of those who are different. Societies and individuals need ot evolve past that, and amazing strides have been made in many places over the past few decades and centuries... including the USA.

It all takes time. Effort. Faith in humanity.