Just one question....

[Reliant75]

Why is it that every thing you here today is negativity and blame and not how to get things done?

I am so tired of people saying how bad the president is (both current and later) and not coming with any better ideas.  I go to the EQ2 website to see why it is offline and people make such hatefull statemments it made me leave the forums.  i subscribe to NewEgg. com and get a message on a great deal but then some turd gets upset cause it was broke when he got it (more than likely his fault anyway).  I am tired of the blame and complaining, it is againist everything I was taught growing up about how to treat each wehter they are in front of you or on the otherside of the world.

Ill I can say is that if you have a problem with someones plan, then come up with a practicul and better plan.  If you are an idiot who just wants to complain and not listen to reason.. well you have that right.. and I have to right NOT to listen.

this message brought to you by the angry Burynai.

[Kwee]

I think most people would *like* to give everyone the benefit of a doubt, but we feel pressured by events and people who are trying to make a point out of each little problem we face.

There is also the odd closing-in of our own mindsets, even as the world-wide-web is supposed to increase it.  For example, I would never use the word, "tu*d.

I agree with you basic idea: Come up with a plan.

[celodar]

I see two reasons.  When people are happy, they don't feel motivated to post everywhere about it.  For example, I'm very happy with EQ2.  Its not perfect, but it a MMO that I will always keep subbing to because there is always lots of new things to do.

The second thing is that people tend to like anonymous uncivil ranting on the Internet.  The fact of some anonymity seems to give people the urge to post dialog that, if said in a store, would likely result in prompt removal from premises and the request to not ever come back.  The concept that no matter what ugly and hurtful things are said, that they will likely never come back to haunt the poster is a lure to some.  I'm sure what people write would change if someone read the words they typed out loud before allowing them to be posted.

[Reliant75]

I apologize Kwee when I used that word... it was out of anger and ... ahh screw it!  it fits!  I cant cuss cause this a "family" forum  and as anyone of my guildies will tell you I cuss everyother word.

As for the anomity of it... civility doesnt matter if the person is in front of you, face to face, or on the otherside of the globe. Once you start walking down the path of uncivility  it will lead to other occasions until you will get into trouble. take a retail employee... everyone who reads this will say that customer service is gone and that retail employees are basically rude now-a-days, but does anyone ever look into why?  its because they are treated that way. 

the basic rule of so many religons, beliefs and ideals are due to ONE thing.. due onto other as you would have don onto yourself. The golden rule... it is now the black rule , of which I will not disagree with ... do onto others as they have done onto you.  sounds auspicious but the truth is.. if you follow the golden rule then if a person is treating you like crap, they in turn wish to be treated like crap.  Maybe its wrong but it is fact that that is how things are played out.

I refuse to say that people who are intellectually trying to slove a problem, no matter how much I disagree with it, in a bad light (curse them, cuss at them, etc).  this stuff about mr.O (president)  people are saying stuff on these (news forums not here) that he should go back to africa or that all liberals should kill themselves, I wish I could hit them up the head!  maybe bash their brains in.  Just because the idea you think is bad doesnt mean you should attack the person, prove the idea wrong.  I felt the same way about Lil B's Policies (the last bush).  People said he did a horrible thing with the wars.. well where was the better ideas?  Reality hurts people (id like to say to them) either fix it or let others fix it.

but this is only the start of my rant.   Kwee I apologize again.

[celodar]

I very much agree with you.  Anonymity should not matter in how someone is interacted with.  The way I address someone when posting as an "anonymous coward" on Slashdot is the same way I should be addressing someone to their face.

Our culture is becoming a culture of rudeness, where the fabric of civility is being tossed aside in return for cheap shots.  Call me an old fogie, but I remember when USENET (the main discussion method on the Internet) had the periodic flame wars, but before things got too difficult, system admins stepped in and reminded the users who had the ability to relieve them of their access.  And if the system admins did not take this action, an upstream site would.  However, as the Internet expanded and there was less interest in maintaining order, even the basic form of civility went out the window.

I also agree with you about the President or a former White House resident, be it Obama or Bush.  What happened to just putting a clear, concise message on a protest sign that was down to the point and professionally done?  Regardless of content, a protest sign is like a Powerpoint slide in a way, it has to be brief and sling a clear message of what needs done.  And the ad hominem attacks against elected officials do nothing other than ensure the officials are more averse to listening to the public, but tend to more listen to the polite speaking lobbyists.

[Quinatan]

The irony that your post is a long rant about how people rant to much does not go un-escaped.

As for "I am so tired of people saying how bad the president is (both current and later) and not coming with any better ideas."  When it comes to elected officials it isn't my job to come up with a better plan, it is their job, they get paid to do nothing all day but come up with plans. These are extremely complex issues, and its easy for me the uneducated citizen to say their plan sucks, it is then their job to either educate me on why the plan does in fact not suck, or come up with a plan that doesn't suck.  If your at work and your boss tells you to come up with an idea for making the company money, and you show up with a shittastic plan, he isn't  going to turn around and come up with a good one for you, he is gonna say it sucks and tell you to go back and come back with something better or your fired.  Same with politics, I"m the boss, they are the elected official, they come up with a better plan, or I don't vote for them next time (i.e. fired).  I'm sorry if you were taught to not complain or blame people, I wasn't hindered by such upbringings if something is wrong I'm gonna complain about it, if someone did something wrong, I'm gonna hold them accountable for it.  I do agree with your message of "If you are an idiot who just wants to complain and not listen to reason.. well you have that right.. and I have to right NOT to listen."  However I feel you understated the important part of that, the ability to listen to reason.  If said elected official is doing his job and trying to educate me as to why the plan doesn't suck, but all I do is shout at him and not let him talk, then I'm not living up to my end of the deal and the blame falls on me.

[Atherin]

My favorite is people who say "This is my position/belief and there is NOTHING you can possibly say that will ever make me see any different!"  .... and then can't understand why I just turn around and walk away.

[Reliant75]

@quinatan.  While I have to agree on the concept of the managerial style to politics, the reality is not so good.  If you were to get a plan from you employee that is .. as you say " shittastic " shittastic" and he dont want to change it, you can just fire him.  but, unfortunatly, in politics, you have to wait 2 years at least to get a new "employee" and that is hoping the "masses" dont forget what they wanted to vote him out of office for.  The turth is politics is a very complex game of chess..a bill or idea has two reasons for being. one for the benefit of the "employee's" boss (the people who voted him in) and to help solifiy his position in the "Job".  In the retail industry were I work the later could get you fired if it were to be found out ( reason being is that particular industy needs to be fluid to achieve its goals. ahrd to explain really)  But in politics there have been people in office for decades... like Kenedy who just recently died ( and now a whole other slop of scat hits the fan).

@atherin  I apologise if I seem locked up in my way of thinking.. I try to see the benefit of letting ones emotions get the better of you in conversations and discussions, but it just seems rude and incoherant.  Wether it be a debate, a comment on an employee, or an item from a store, complaining about it doesnt get the job done, actions do. And in politics, for some reason, lying is considered an action we should live with.

[Atherin]

I wasn't aiming that at you or anyone in particular.  Did it come off that way?  I was just saying it's one of my peeves.  I try to listen to learned debate and I actually enjoy it.

[Reliant75]

i felt it was not directed my way, but some people may ask. 

Scarey when stuff that is soo important is going around everyone in this country, this world rather, and only a few people speak.. and only a small percentage of those do it without bias.

[Perragin]

I usually avoid these types of discussions of forums just because I do not "express" my views as well in type as orally, and it's very easy to say something others will misunderstand. But as Ath said I enjoy good discussions and this one has touched a nerve per se.

My own opinion in my nearly 50 years of exsistance is that the 60s revolution has brought forth a whole generation of people who want to be individuals. That in and of itself is not a bad thing but it seems to have evolved into a "whats in it for me" mentality. It seems everyone else is to blame and everyone else should fix it. As an example, I am a pharmacist. Everyday, several times a day I am blamed by my customers for having no refills, their insurance copays going up, drugs not being covered, ect, ect. Yet if I were to say what I should say in some cases, I would be fired. Instead I am expected to accept this blame even though I do not work for insurance companies and the reason no refills are on a prescription is because the doctor wants to check with you to see how it's going. Not me, I don't take this drug. I have counciled people till blue in the face but always, it's my fault. There was a time when people not only took responibility for their own actions but "actively" tried to fix these problems. I still try to, but it gets harder every day.

So I feel your pain (especially the retail part, ugh). Elections drive me insane. All I ever hear from either side is how bad the other guy is. Rarely how they plan to fix things. I swear if ever a cantidate goes through an enitre election without saying something bad about his opponent I will embrace this person as leader for life! And in this, "It's his fault" day and age I fear we will always blame whoever we can. The funny thing is were it not for groups of others lobbying to get what they want by threatining those who run to help us there would most likely be very few problems to fix! If all people would just think of how others are affected first we would all be happier. Do I expect perfection? No, just that we strive toward it. And when a mistake is made just own up to it and fix it as best as you can. And just never blame the other guy...

Well, I have overstayed my welcome here. Forgive if I failed to make my point. And please do not take anything I typed personally. Thanks for the time

[Reliant75]

@Perragin:   Crowds roar of agreement and exultation.  You did an excellant job of tell us how you feel, never feel ashamed of that, no matter how other people react.

i enjoy discussions on this forum cause people do listen (or in this case Read) and they are very well mannered (except when a few of us get drunk, just kidding).
Even our dear and favorite kwee, even durring his most outrageous outbrust has a least keep his decorum to considerate levels.  That is why I post this question, discussion here.  I can honestly believe you will not intentionally 'shoot me down" and respect my views.  i cant get that anywhere else, I would be labeled a liberal, a facist, you name it.

turth is.. I am scared.  I dont know whats gonna happen but with all this hate and rage that so many people feel.. the lack of consideration and knowledge.. it reminds me of some history studies I use to do.. the time before Napoleon and Hitler rose to power come to mind.

[Kwee]

When I was in my early teens and the Beatles were just getting into stereo, there were lots of (then) expensive speaker companies with lots of scientific reasons why their speakers were best.  In a while, Bose came out with those tiny little 901s, which the salesman would turn way up to wow you with their sound and bass.  Meanwhile, there was Klipsch (for example) with their huge speakers, like the La Scalas, which I bought.

I'm staring at my 21-inch computer monitor.  I have a little "boom-box" to my right.  I have a little Acoustic Research speaker system attached to my computer, with a switchable thingy that lets me listen to PC sounds on a rather hoaky headphone set.

So what happened?  Yeah, I'm older, so my ears aren't quite as good as they used to be.  And, yeah, in spending money for toys, sooner or later you have to stop buying the "top of the line" cause you just can't afford it.

But really, what happened was, *I* changed.  Reliant, you can ask Wren or Bhinder. . . I'm just odd.  Words like "crap" or "turd' upset me, while I probably use f^&% and sonofabi%$# once a day.

Anyway, as I said, *I* changed.  My ears changed.  I was in the middle of Berkeley in 1968-69 when kids my age (and a little older) were making such "important" statements.  What I've learned from then and now is, people know how to talk better than they know how to listen, and. . .

(this one is odd) . . . the more I know, the less I understand.

I've read a LOT over the past 40 or more years.  Non-fiction, political, science, science-fiction, mystery, silly stuff.  I've watched CBS, NBC, FOX, MSNBC, CNBC and I read a LOT of stuff on the net.

And you know what?  At any given moment, I'm like a balanced elephant on one of those little stools in a circus.  I could  drop off one side and rail against the fascist right-wingers and their cousin-marrying Christian fundamentalists for thinking that we could ever possibly go back to the 1620s and the "ethic" of work, God, country and family.  Those were the same people that burned innocent women at the stake or turned them out for differences of belief.

I'll leave it to the reader to decide what I could do when faced with an avowed socialist executive and party in charge of Congress.  The point is, I like the Beatles.  I used to want to hear them on speakers that cost $900.  Now I have CDs and like to hear them on things that cost under $100.  And I'm currently listening to Frank Sinatra on that "cheap" system, when Sinatra was almost an icon of "old foagy" in my youth.

All those people that were so angry and committed to protesting in my youth were basically turning away from something they didn't agree with.  Well, I do that every day, and so have most people for centuries.  What seems to have happened, though, is that it's not enough to protest by not participating.  NOW you have to get in the face of someone and break things or get some sort of face-time on TV.  People get 15 seconds on TV and we watch them and think we're just as entitled to everything as anyone else or our representatives, and if some guy slights you, that's just like our representative just getting needled by some clown, even if he's guilty of taking bribes, or whatever.

We've lost perspective.  In 2009, most of us can afford the cool Bose 901 speakers or the Klipsch.  We stop reading all the scientific papers or even listening to our own ears.

For the record, I dislike most members of Congress and local legislatures.  I realize there are valid arguments against term limits and everything else "we" have tried to do in the last 100 years to get those jerks to shut the F%$# up and stop buying votes.  But meanwhile, some of my closest friends believe that government SHOULD take care of us.

I live in California, so mostly, I cower when so many friends disagree with me.  And they're mostly civil, even as they castigate me for my beliefs.  What we don't like is unrelenting hatred, or unmoving prejudice.

I mean, unrelenting *love* is ok, yes?  And unmoving tolerance sounds like a nice thing?

But "hatred" and "prejudice" are words that can be used with any adjective and it sounds terrible.

We used to hate intolerance.  Or we used to be intolerant of prejudice.  Or we used to be prejudiced against tyranny.

But now, the very words are anathema to polite discourse.

You know why?  Because people don't think very well, any more.

If the 1960s were the 2000s, Klipsch and Bose would be at each other's throats.  Maybe they were, for profits.  But they never were, for saying who they were, what they offered and how they offered it.  It's come down to us - unable to offer logical arguments for our beliefs - to demonize and denigrate each other because we can't voice our true beliefs or differences thereof.

[Atherin]

What I've learned from then and now is, people know how to talk better than they know how to listen, and. . .

(this one is odd) . . . the more I know, the less I understand.

And that, my friend, is true wisdom.

[Quinatan]

I think age puts changes your perception of the world.  At some point your mentality changes from "My best days are ahead of me" to  "My best days are behind me" and I think that is one of the fundamental differences between political factions.   One group wants to go back to the way it was because they reminder the good old days, one group wants to change it to the way they want it to be because they believe they can make things better than they are now . Nobody is happy with the way it is.  One side has important hard learned lessons of life to contribute, the other side isn't held back by pre-conserved notions and generally brings a unique perspective that wasn't available "back in the day" unfortunitly instead of bridging the gap and bringing the best of what both have to offer, we burn the bridges and point to the extremest on both sides as an excuse to not listen.